[Update: I might have made a mistake of lumping all these discussion groups together. I came to the conclusion that they were all run by Leftists or Islam-enablers pretending they were hosting a genuine discussion or a debate forum. That was certainly true of 'EDL Vs MDL Banter Page' but not true of the other Facebook page I mention, 'Anyone with an Opinion'? - which had EDL admin. etc. - 25.3.2013]
I decided to write this post after being accused of being a 'racist' by the 'EDL Vs MDL Banter Page' (by the page itself - not by another poster) for posting something which included the following:
"These Muslims probably do all belong to a single race/ethnic group - UK-born Pakistani Muslims. But many Muslims aren't Pakistani. In fact, if the above are mainly Pakistani, then they will have faced the racist imperialism of the religion of the desert Arabs - Islam (which will explain how many of them are dressed). The worst racists today are Arabic Muslims. They believe that Allah only speaks Arabic, and that non-Arabic Muslims, from the UK to Malaysia, should wear Arabic clothes, have Arabic names and even make their mosques in the Arabic style. On top of all this. Arab-Muslim racism explains the continued existence of slavery - the slavery of mainly black Africans - in various Arab Muslim countries. Even Pakistani Muslims, like the ones above, get a hard time in places like Saudi Arabia. That doesn't seem to stop them from being wannabe Arabs."
(What I say also applies to the ‘EDL & MDL & UAF & Anyone with an opinion?' FaceBook page.)
I suggest to all EDL members not to waste time trying to debate with these FaceBook pages.
They don’t debate either because they can't debate or because all debate will slow down - or threaten - whatever cause (‘anti-racism’ or ‘anti-fascism’?) it is they are fighting for.
You will also find endless Leftist whataboutisms. For example (not their actual words, need I say),
You say this about Islam and the Left, but what about what Luther said in 1556 and what America did in 1931?
My guess in that the editors (is that the right word?) of ‘Banter’ are between 16 and 18 years old and are still in the first flush of their commitment to Leftism and its parallel support of all things Islamic. As for ‘EDL & MDL & UAF & Anyone with an opinion?’, they’re probably between 17 and 21 and slighly more sophisticated (if that's the right word). In other words, don't make the mistake I've often made with these braindead Leftists - of trying to debate with them.
No (Real) Platform for the EDL on These Pages
I agree with the people who run these sites - we are at war. But these FaceBook pages don’t come clean as to who they are and how their sole mission is to destroy the EDL. They are not honest and they practise deceit (a tried and tested Trotskyist and Islamist tactic).
To these Leftists this war means: No Platform or No Debate. Except that they pretend that they are into debating stuff. These sites clearly display that deceit.
Far Leftists, just like the far right, never actually debate anything. The come out with endless Leftist soundbites, clichés, ad hominems, whataboutisms - anything but debate.
But if these FaceBook pages are at war with the EDL, but implicitly deny that they are (say, because of the structure of the pages and the fact that it allows me and other EDL to post), then these pages are just gimmicks - or strategies to change possible supporters of the EDL or to preach to converted ‘anti-racist' Leftists (mainly the latter).
One of these sites accused me of ‘having an agenda’. So do they. I admit it I’m EDL. They don’t admit anything. (There are no details about who runs these sites, what political/religious groups they support, etc.)
But they make their own agenda plain and explicit by saying what they have said about EDL 'agendas'.
One of the runners of these sites claims to have ‘no agenda’ and that he ‘just wants to see what people think about the EDL, the MDL, Islam...’. Yet the very fact that he posts what he posts, comments as he does, as well as sets up a FaceBook site in the first place, shows us that he too has an agenda. It doesn’t matter to me, or to anyone else, that he tries his hardest to disguise - or even deny - his own agenda - say, by allowing EDL supporters to post.
You will often find that these sites say that you shouldn’t criticise X unless you also criticise Y. But who says that I, or any other EDL, doesn’t criticise Y?
For example, why should I criticise Christianity in a post about Islam in Pakistan? Just to prove to Leftists and others that I’m not biased? That subject wouldn’t allow me to start talking about Old Testament Christianity - it wouldn’t be relevant!
Why don’t they simply tackle EDL points instead of being all psychoanalytical about someone’s ‘agenda’ - especially since they’ve clearly got an agenda too (as everyone has)?
One site runner also said (not in these exact words):
What about Christian bigots?
Then he said:
What about America?
What about the EDL?
Take another example of Leftist whataboutism I experienced. The debate was again about Islam in Pakistan and the treatment of women there.
I got the usual stuff about ‘Christian sexism’ and ‘Christian misogyny’. But there is a difference between a Christian beating his wife, and one who does so because his religion states that he can do so - and even justifies it.
This is classic Leftist whataboutism. That is (again):
You can’t criticise X unless you also criticise Y.
But why can’t someone criticise Islam and not be obliged to also criticise Christianity? He may do so elsewhere. This is like:
Don’t criticise Stalin - what about Hitler?
Or, as one Muslim said in response to criticisms of the Taliban blowing up Buddhist statues:
‘Do you know what’s happening to Muslims in Palestine?’
A complete whataboutism which hardly makes sense!
Also, regardless of what is said in the Old Testament, do many Christians, or any, stone women to death, cut off their clitorises, ban them from working, etc? Maybe some do. But millions upon millions of Muslims believe that these anti-women words and actions are acceptable and true.
Also, only a tiny proportion of Christians take the Old Testament literally. Most Muslims are more or less ordered to take the Koran literally. That is a massive difference.
So these are all valid question about the EDL and about Christianity. But none of them were direct responses to the original posts or even to what I, or other EDL, said in the comments.
So they either accuse EDL, or any people they disagree with, of being THIS or THAT, or of having an agenda. Anything to stop debate. No Platform, eh?!
EDL Racism? That Closer of debate.
'Although obviously criticising a religion is not in itself racist, it is often used as a smokescreen by racists, as it is easier to attack a religion than a race.' (From 'Banter')
Yes, that may be true. But how do they know it's true about all - or even most - EDL members? How do you know it's true about any critic of Islam or Muslims unless he explicitly states his racism? They cannot go all psychoanalytical again and say that this EDL member
is really racist even though he says he's only anti-Islam.
Is that true even if this EDL member has never said a single word that is racist? Is he still basically 'hiding his racism behind a smokescreen'? If these people only want to debate with straw targets, the why don’t they go in their gardens and build some?
As for ‘stereotyping Islam’- which comes up again and again on these FaceBook sites.
Often that can simply be taken for this:
Any negative view of Islam is, by definition, a stereotype.
Do these sites accuse positive commentators on Islam or Muslims of being ‘stereotypical’? No they don’t! Yet positive views about Islam, etc. can be, and often are, just as stereotypical as negative ones. So why do these people pick out only the negative ‘stereotypes’? (Actually, it is stereotypical to call all negative or critical views of Islam ‘stereotypical’.)
So why haven't the people who run these FaceBook sites got the guts to come clean about who they are and where you are coming from - as most people who run FaceBook discussion sites do?
They can’t claim that they are 'open-minded' on the issues of the EDL, Islam, the Left, etc. because clearly they aren’t. In fact they have very specific political/ideological agendas for these sites even though they play on the gimmick of discussing both sides of the argument. That may be true of the posters. But it certainly isn't true of the people who run these sites.
So these people are basically abuse their position of running a FACEBOOK site in that they call the shots and can delete unwanted posts and comments, etc.
In the end, then, these Leftist Islamophiles (one of them is a Muslim or Islamist) are not worth debating with. Unless some EDL just want a laugh.
Links to the two Leftist sites: